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Deborah Griffin is a pioneer of women's rugby. She played in the first known women's game in England in 1978 and helped create the first Women's Rugby World Cup in 1991. Having never picked up a rugby ball until she created a team at university in the late seventies, Griffin quickly became one of the sport’s most instrumental figures. The RFU originally had little interest in female teams, so Griffin and her rugby friends established a separate Women’s Rugby Football Union in 1983. The WRFU and the RFU integrated in 2012 and the women's game exploded. Deborah Griffin took up her presidency of the RFU this past summer. As England's Red Roses play in the 2025 Women's Rugby World Cup, Griffin's name and those of other pioneers of the sport are stitched inside their official team jackets. Stephen Smith talks to friends and colleagues about Deborah Griffin’s central role in bringing women's rugby to the fore. Presenter: Stephen Smith Producers: Lucy Proctor, Alex Loftus and Adriana Urbano Editor: Justine Lang Sound Editor: Gareth Jones